tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post5873105891093967711..comments2023-12-17T16:13:06.670-05:00Comments on In a Godward direction: Further on SalvationTobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-34944529855190162872008-08-09T15:01:00.000-05:002008-08-09T15:01:00.000-05:00Father Haller,Just recently came across your blog....Father Haller,<BR/><BR/>Just recently came across your blog. Praise God for your insight into the Scripture, and actually caring that seeking people come to faith in God in Christ. <BR/><BR/>It is sad, and beyond incredible to me that we actually have leaders in TEC who seem to have little concern for the conversion of those outside the church. <BR/><BR/>Even apart from any question of Heaven or Hell, surely a realization of our union with Jesus Christ is it's own reward. <BR/><BR/>Sincerely,<BR/>Grace.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-5546168826860656942008-08-04T11:29:00.000-05:002008-08-04T11:29:00.000-05:00Thanks, Fr. J-J. This ties in well with the genera...Thanks, Fr. J-J. This ties in well with the general <I>geographical</I> thinking in Jewish notions of salvation. It is "being <I>delivered</I>" and entry to the promised <I>land</I>. A real sense of being physically removed from danger to a safe place... and in the company of one's people.Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-242709118024172772008-08-04T11:17:00.000-05:002008-08-04T11:17:00.000-05:00It is interesting that etymologically, the Hebrew ...It is interesting that etymologically, the Hebrew words for "save", "salvation", and "savior" all carry the root sense of "breadth" or "spaciousness" or "wide freedom from restriction". To quote one of my dictionaries: For a Jew, "salvation is enlargement" and is always seen as a corporate activity, never a personal experience. <BR/><BR/>It is interesting that the Greek moves slightly away from the "liberation" sense with (as you point out, Tobias) the basic idea of "healing". But even more important, the Greek (and present evangelical thought) tends to make it a much more personal, individualized matter.<BR/><BR/>I'm interested in some of the African tribal understandings of self-in-community where "I" refers to the community as a whole – where "How are you?" means "How is your entire family/tribe doing?"<BR/><BR/>I think a sigular corrective of the private "are-you-saved" thinking is the re-assertion of the corporate and communal dimension of single-predestination salvation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-68411351763887634882008-08-04T10:17:00.000-05:002008-08-04T10:17:00.000-05:00slidejockey,I made use of LTJ's NT "survey" in sem...slidejockey,<BR/>I made use of LTJ's NT "survey" in seminary, and have read a few of his articles here and there. I like his approach very much, and it doesn't surprise me he has this take on Galatians. (Frankly, I don't think it makes much sense otherwise).<BR/><BR/>RB, Thanks for the note. Glad this is helpful...Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-68323488844250973322008-08-04T10:14:00.000-05:002008-08-04T10:14:00.000-05:00Thanks Kishnevi. The rich flowering of Jewish myst...Thanks Kishnevi. The rich flowering of Jewish mysticism has deep roots, and I think Paul was certainly foraging in the undergrowth. Wasn't it to Hillel, Paul's spiritual grandfather through Gamaliel, who taught that he who saves a single life saves an entire world? So that idea of the universality and interconnectedness of all living was around, at least purportedly.<BR/><BR/>JCF, I think we have to see the "faith in" as as much of a gift as the "faith of" -- all our life is a gift, and every gift is from God. God inspires both the will and the deed, in a prevenient way. Yes, the predestinationists take this too far, I think; I can't imagine God choosing ultimate destruction for any sentient being -- and am convinced of the persuasiveness of God's love; these two together tend towards a more complete salvation.<BR/><BR/>As I noted in my sermon yesterday, echoing Julian of Norwich: God is the source of our hunger as well as the means to satisfy it. And God does so abundantly, with many baskets of leftovers, so that none need go hungry...Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-14055105325264556072008-08-04T10:10:00.000-05:002008-08-04T10:10:00.000-05:00Tobias,These ideas are very much in sync with the ...Tobias,<BR/><BR/>These ideas are very much in sync with the writings and teachings of Luke Timothy Johnson, a professor at Emory University. His lecture on Galatians and the idea of pistis Christou really changed my thoughts on salvation. Are you familiar with his work?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-17859822129031873172008-08-04T09:19:00.000-05:002008-08-04T09:19:00.000-05:00Thank you. This helps explain things a bit furthe...Thank you. This helps explain things a bit further. I cannot entirely believe in universal salvation but I do certainly hope it's true! And yes, we should all be grateful that the part of that which we share is not our own doing God's. This is a great mystery as you said and I'm happy to have a chance to explore it.the Reverend boyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09606211682028390049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-70998803231302345922008-08-04T00:43:00.000-05:002008-08-04T00:43:00.000-05:00How does the concept of faith (i.e., "faith in") a...How does the concept of faith (i.e., "faith in") as a GIFT fit in, Tobias?<BR/><BR/>It seems to me that EITHER you go down the primrose path of Double Predestination (you weren't given the Gift of Faith, because God always destined you for hellfire!) *OR* one concludes that the Gift of Faith-In must be <I>optional</I> for salvation (in the same way that tongues or prophecy or other charisms are).<BR/><BR/>When someone describes Christian Salvation (ala Luther) "Saved by Grace, through Faith", I think that the latter's only necessary to be able to SAY something like "I was saved by Grace, through Faith!"<BR/><BR/>Whereas the salvation part is due to Grace, and Grace alone! JMO.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-90873201958023493692008-08-03T20:31:00.000-05:002008-08-03T20:31:00.000-05:00Paul undoubtedly was influenced by the rabbinic un...Paul undoubtedly was influenced by the rabbinic understanding of what "faith" (emunah) meant. In Hebrew the word can mean loyalty as it does in English, and applied to God: the word Amen is supposed to be an acrostic for a phrase that means "God the faithful king" (El Melech Neaman). But in the wider implications the word is not just belief in a specific thing: it's not "evidence for things unseen" so much as it is the basis of one's worldview: so it is possible to speak of an atheist's faith. Abraham didn't just believe God, in the way that a child will believe his mother when she says she will make spaghetti and meatballs for dinner that night; he based his entire worldview and all his actions on what he believed about God--and since those actions and that worldview led him to do righteous things, his faith was the source of his righteousness.<BR/>Rabbinic tradition also developed the view that redemption can not come for just an individual, but involves the entire nation, and ultimately the entire universe. As long as any human being is not redeemed, no one human can be completely redeemed. However, I don't know how far that idea had been developed in Paul's era, so it was something that he may or may not have encountered. But it's probably apposite to quote his statement about how the whole creation groans and waits for redemption.<BR/>And if Simon bar Yohai really did write the Zohar, then Paul might have known some of the Kabbalistic teachings that transform redemption into a sort of wholesale reassemblage of the soul of the original Adam, with every human soul rather like a piece in a jigsaw puzzle. But since Siman bar Yohai probably didn't write the Zohar, then Paul was about 12 centuries too early to hear that possibility :)<BR/>(But he might have known of another tradition that claims Adam's soul was reborn in David and will be reborn in the Messiah, as proved by the letters of his name (ADM).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-62498156189506178062008-08-03T14:27:00.000-05:002008-08-03T14:27:00.000-05:00Yes, DC, I think that is very much part of the pic...Yes, DC, I think that is very much part of the picture. And in 4:16 we see that same genetic (and genitive!) sense of sharing in the faith OF Abraham, who is "the father of us all" in terms of faith.<BR/><BR/>It is a very rich mystery, this salvation / justification / sanctification business. Thanks be to God that God does the greater part of the work, and we do not have to rely on our works!Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-69447104275821716872008-08-03T14:11:00.000-05:002008-08-03T14:11:00.000-05:00Romans 4 sheds some light here: Paul draws a para...Romans 4 sheds some light here: Paul draws a parallel with Abraham, who was reckoned righteous because he trusted in God and acted accordingly. In Rom. 3.25-26, I wonder if Paul is saying to his readers: <EM>Abraham trusted that God would give children to him and Sarah. Now <STRONG>you</STRONG> must trust that God has eliminated any further need for temple sacrifices to expiate sin, which he did by sending his son to serve as the ultimate sacrifice. Just as with Abraham, it is your trust <STRONG>in God</STRONG> that causes you to be reckoned righteous.</EM>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com