tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post7104711709476531746..comments2023-12-17T16:13:06.670-05:00Comments on In a Godward direction: UFO SightingTobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-86816829039285115882010-11-17T14:04:58.815-05:002010-11-17T14:04:58.815-05:00Thanks for all the comments. I've been so busy...Thanks for all the comments. I've been so busy scribbling new thoughts I've had little time to respond.<br /><br />Mimi, so true. We have fine full communion relationships with Lutherans and Moravians -- why are our own siblings so much more troublesome or troubled?<br /><br />Muthah, yr welcome!<br /><br />Bp Alan, I love the image. You hit on a crucial irony -- it's all about relationships, but it's the relationships that will suffer, or be the leverage. Manipulation, and toxicity come to mind! Do they study Family Systems in the C of E -- US clergy have to do an intensive course prior to ordination, in a clinical pastoral setting such as a hospital or prison. Actually your scenario about slavery is just about right: TEC prior to the Civil War, judiciously avoided taking a position to keep the peace, and it was only the actual outbreak of war that forced the unwilling creation of a new "national church" for the new "nation" (not recognized in the Union as such, so the bishops names were still read at role-call!)<br /><br />JCF, I've commented on that strange notion in a later post. OoW would not have happened -- and hasn't she noticed that OoW2Episcopate hasn't happened!?!<br /><br />Paul, a great image. Carry on, Samuel!<br /><br />SCG, don't you know that war is peace?<br /><br />Fred, it seems to be blowing hot and cold about now...<br /><br />Marshall, yes. This is one of the strangest identity crises in the Covenant. It makes no sense whatsoever except as providing a kind of special "club" or "inner circle" for those who want "enhanced communion" quite apart from the Anglican Communion. It is madness, and Pharisaic madness, at that!Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-21485787377004535562010-11-17T13:12:31.556-05:002010-11-17T13:12:31.556-05:00I took the good Canon's admonition and looked ...I took the good Canon's admonition and looked again at that Covenant as proposed. When I did, I realized that <a href="http://episcopalhospitalchaplain.blogspot.com/2010/11/new-game-of-proposed-anglican-covenant.html" rel="nofollow">there is no automatic relationship</a> between being a church of the Anglican Communion and a signatory church of the Covenant. It's not really two tiers, but two bodies, one new and one old, with some (perhaps a lot of) overlap. <br /><br />One way or another, it's more confused than she suggests. that confusion should make it harder for any church, including the Episcopal Church or the Church of England, to sign on.Marshall Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02807749717320495495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-16610015723473935592010-11-16T22:16:00.062-05:002010-11-16T22:16:00.062-05:00To quote a famous poet of our times:
"Ya don&...To quote a famous poet of our times:<br />"Ya don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows."Frank Remkiewicz aka “Tree”https://www.blogger.com/profile/00501821790434895826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-90661148688066391152010-11-16T21:01:35.924-05:002010-11-16T21:01:35.924-05:00I read her statement and sighed heavily. I have re...I read her statement and sighed heavily. I have read the text, and read it again, and read it a third time. The sections you highlight are the ones that concern me the most. And I'm growing weary of the counter-argument being either name-calling or poo-pooing our concerns by saying it doesn't say what it says. Has George Orwell been writing the script from the Great Beyond?SCGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08162762233972733978noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-33275593031528657502010-11-16T20:52:30.727-05:002010-11-16T20:52:30.727-05:00This whole discussion reminds me of another Biblic...This whole discussion reminds me of another Biblical narrative, that of the Amphictyonic period. The Hebrews had no King, because their only King was God. But the Hebrews wanted a King, because everyone else had a King. So they appealed to the prophet (Samuel?) who tried to talk them out of it. You are going to regret this, he said. You don't know what you are in for, he said. But the people insisted. They wanted to be like all the other nations in the region. So they got their King, Saul. That didn't work out so well.<br /><br />I think we are dealing with a number of primates who want their own pope. Personally, I don't have the slightest envy for the Roman system. I think the amphictyonic structure of the original Anglican Communion was just fine.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02410143259690873128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-36626455169669557962010-11-16T16:30:43.380-05:002010-11-16T16:30:43.380-05:00When I first read her "Covenant Communion MIG...When I first read her "Covenant Communion MIGHT not have prevented OOW", I was gobsmacked by her underwhelming reassurance.<br /><br />...but is it possible that (subversively) that was her intention? ["Damning With Faint Praise" and all that? O_o]JCFnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-58436779599105528422010-11-16T16:26:14.189-05:002010-11-16T16:26:14.189-05:00Tobias, in my previous comment, I asked a question...Tobias, in my previous comment, I asked a question to which I now believe I have the answer. It was Kenneth Kearon who removed the TEC people from the ecumenical councils, and he had the right to do so, as he acted with the blessing of the ABC, who appoints members to the councils.<br /><br />Of course, I could be wrong.June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-71035336169117570432010-11-16T15:40:58.758-05:002010-11-16T15:40:58.758-05:00I find the phrase about "relational consequen...I find the phrase about "relational consequences" pure Gestapo dentist. It seems to rather simplfy the reality of relationships. <br /><br />Let's take a presently uncontroversial subject about which there is rather more in the Bible than hoosexuality. <br /><br />Imagine one diocese renounces slavery in the US, 1850. This will play out rather well relationally with Yankee liberals and Southern slaves, presumably. But rather worse with the slave owners (South) and disappointed would-be slave owners (North). People who believe slavery is in the bible and commanded by God will want to walk separately, whilst the few abolitionists in antebellum Southern States will be delighted. <br /><br />A perfectly average Comittee of 15 primates meet. Which relational consequences will they privilege, and how, and on what grounds? Does it rather depend on which 15? When their obiter dicta are delivered, what about the minorities who have been found to be in breach of the covenant (even though they didn't by definition know they were when they didn't because they couldn't have because the committtee of 15 hadn't yet discussed the matter, assuming their judgment was right when they did.)<br /><br />I'm massively confused.Bishop Alan Wilsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13879516755776951638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-57294598044098313172010-11-16T15:30:55.756-05:002010-11-16T15:30:55.756-05:00Thank you Rev. Sir!Thank you Rev. Sir!Muthah+https://www.blogger.com/profile/10589837671378205837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1469058068900095592010-11-16T15:19:08.045-05:002010-11-16T15:19:08.045-05:00The Anglican Communion's Department of Unity F...The Anglican Communion's Department of Unity Faith and Order resembles more and more the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith of the Roman Catholic Church, which, of course, began life as the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition. Perhaps, as Tobias suggests, the comparison is odious, but whence came the power of whomever to remove the members of the Episcopal Church from the ecumenical councils in which members of the WWAC are presently engaged?<br /><br />Apparently, no one in the ACO detects the irony (or hypocrisy?) that other denominations with whom the AC engages in conversation permit partnered gay clergy and bishops, but members of the councils from TEC are not allowed to participate in the discussions.<br /><br />What am I missing?June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-9692990135096505042010-11-16T13:30:41.841-05:002010-11-16T13:30:41.841-05:00Was there ever a sepulcher more in need of whitewa...Was there ever a sepulcher more in need of whitewash?Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-39824494569121189802010-11-16T13:10:53.993-05:002010-11-16T13:10:53.993-05:00Yes, my child, you are an adult and you may do wha...Yes, my child, you are an adult and you may do whatever seems good to you. But if I don't like it I will disinherit you.<br /><br />Well, at least we know what kind of a family the Anglican "Communion" may become.WSJMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09712152737422347034noreply@blogger.com