tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post8290574826440430987..comments2023-12-17T16:13:06.670-05:00Comments on In a Godward direction: Corrective LensesTobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-55442807055611039572007-07-21T00:09:00.000-05:002007-07-21T00:09:00.000-05:00As a Roman Catholic priest, I found your summary q...As a Roman Catholic priest, I found your summary quite good.<BR/><BR/>FrMichaelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-11940861185673602632007-07-12T10:29:00.000-05:002007-07-12T10:29:00.000-05:00Sung to the theme tune of a comic TV show of many ...Sung to the theme tune of a comic TV show of many years past:<BR/><BR/>"John Twenty-Third, where are you?"Ormonde Platerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05145096672539029672noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-66100424972341645072007-07-12T09:12:00.000-05:002007-07-12T09:12:00.000-05:00Thanks GM, and Deacon P., and I think both questio...Thanks GM, and Deacon P., and I think both questions you raise are worthy of yet another separate post. I do think this statement is relevant to us as Anglicans as something <I>to avoid</I>. More on this later in the day when I have a moment...Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-76581424938750815422007-07-12T08:55:00.000-05:002007-07-12T08:55:00.000-05:00At the end of Being As Communion, John Zizioulas a...At the end of Being As Communion, John Zizioulas asks: "Has a confessional body per se the right to be regarded as Church?" He answers no, because a church "must incarnate people, not ideas or beliefs." Does this have any bearing on the current discussion?Ormonde Platerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05145096672539029672noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-34987628250045183292007-07-11T16:52:00.000-05:002007-07-11T16:52:00.000-05:00Bill, that is my recollection as well. I think Ben...Bill, that is my recollection as well. I think Ben16 is trying to pull back the enthusiasts though he knows he can't quite go all the way back to Unam Sanctam. (I'm not entirely sure he wants to). But he seems to me to be trying to draw the lines as clearly as possible; he seems to be a "boundary" kind of guy.<BR/><BR/>And this on the feast of St Benedict!Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-52861049646220890952007-07-11T16:46:00.000-05:002007-07-11T16:46:00.000-05:00Ratzinger has been trying to spin away the clear s...Ratzinger has been trying to spin away the clear sense of subsistit in for years. My recollection is that the original text of the council document was a straightforward identification of the Church of Christ with the Church of Rome and that the more progressive bishops and theologians offered subsistit in as a substitute.Bill Carrollhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14743851784631753415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-33853809615063043602007-07-11T16:45:00.000-05:002007-07-11T16:45:00.000-05:00Thomas,As is often true I agree that the language ...Thomas,<BR/>As is often true I agree that the language of "subsists in" is helpful, as long as it can be held to apply to all Christian churches possessing all that is essential to being a church -- which to my mind does not include the papacy! Part of what I like about it is that it acknowledges an "already/not yet" that can be hopeful or hurtful depending on whether you see the glass as half empty or full.<BR/><BR/>I also agree with your comment at the other post that this is in some degree a slap at the old Unam Sanctam crowd; and would further suggest that while the Motu Proprio gave the traditionalists something with one hand, this document -- in stressing the importance of an obedientiary connection to the Papacy through "governance" as well as "communion" -- is offering a warning to the self-styled "independent" catholics (as another commenter pointed out) and to the Lefevrist crowd as well.<BR/><BR/>Let me also add that this interplay between "communion" and "governance" is precisely at issue in the development of an Anglican Covenant.<BR/><BR/>Do you know the wag who coined the answer to the question about whether bishops were of the esse of the church or only for the bene esse? He responded they were for the being of the church, but not its well being... ;-)Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-38488584187598504142007-07-11T16:25:00.000-05:002007-07-11T16:25:00.000-05:00may i add one bit?i find the "subsists in" languag...may i add one bit?<BR/><BR/>i find the "subsists in" language *extremely helpful* in three ways.<BR/><BR/>first, it is a far sight more tolerable than the view of Unam Sanctam.<BR/><BR/>second, while it is often read to say "subsists in the RC Church, and nowhere else", it does not actually say that. the Church of Christ may well subsist in the RC Church <I>and</I> other places. of course this is not the current RC view, but i note that it is (1) very close to Hooker's sentiment as you put it, and (2) not actually contrary to the actual use of the subsistence language.<BR/><BR/>third, it seems to me a better way to say what Hooker was getting at. well, Hooker's poetic statement is beautiful, but if one wants a less poetic and more "philosophical" sounding statement, the "subsists in" talk is far better to me than the WCC talk of "each church is the church", which suits the politics of the WCC well, but has no spiritual reality that i can see which is not better captured by the talk of subsistence.<BR/><BR/>unlike the WCC, and well, tough on them, i believe that episcopal ordination is of the plenum esse of the church, and therefore i do agree with the recent statement that a lack of valid episcopal ordination is not a mere lack or absence, but the missing of something crucial.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com