tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post9051466555708142516..comments2023-12-17T16:13:06.670-05:00Comments on In a Godward direction: Reading Rowan — Part the SecondTobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-12643168471597806192009-08-09T23:10:48.182-05:002009-08-09T23:10:48.182-05:00. . and I speak as one with tenure.
Yeah, but you...<i>. . and I speak as one with tenure.</i><br /><br />Yeah, but <b>you</b> can back it up! :DMarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-79415718017895307272009-08-07T23:36:08.710-05:002009-08-07T23:36:08.710-05:00Hi, Tobias+, and thanks for these two parts.
Dr. ...Hi, Tobias+, and thanks for these two parts.<br /><br />Dr. Williams argues that a gay cleric in a committed relationship, or even in a civil marriage, is in the same, untenable, position as a heterosexual cleric living with a person outside of marriage. This standard would, I think, condemn Cranmer and make Parker's position dubious.<br /><br />Here's why: First, while he doesn't consider the specific case, I believe Dr. Williams would necessarily say that a heterosexual cleric living in a merely pretended marriage is in the same position as one cohabiting without even a claim of marriage.<br /><br />Second, Canon 7 of the Second Lateran Council (1139) provided that marriages contracted in violation of the ecclesiastical law regarding celibacy would not be regarded as matrimony--i.e., would be invalid.<br /><br />Thus, any priest who went through a putative marriage ceremony was in fact living with a woman not his wife, and was, by the Williams standard, in the same position as a gay person living with a partner.<br /><br />Now consider the first two Archbishops of the Reformation.<br /><br />Thomas Cranmer, a widower, was ordained priest c. 1520; in July, 1532, he married again, but the marriage was invalid under Canon 7 of Lateran II. As Cranmer was consecrated with papal approbation on 30 March 1533, it might be argued that Clement VI knew about the secret marriage and decided to overlook it. Unless that is the case, however, Cranmer was, by Dr. Williams' standards, precisely as unable to serve as a bishop as Dr. Robinson is.<br /><br />Matthew Parker was ordained priest in 1527; in 1547, the first year of Edward VI, he married. Again, the pretended marriage was in violation of both canon (changed in December of that year) and statute (changed in 1549). The statute of 1549 was repealed by Queen Mary's First Act of Repeal in 1553, and under Mary's Injunctions of 1554, all "married" priests were required to be deprived and divorced. Elizabeth then recognized existing clerical marriages by section XXIX of her own Injunctions in June of 1559, just in time for Parker to be nominated as Archbishop in August. So Parker, unlike Cranmer, had a valid marriage at the time of his consecration in December, albeit one that had been invalid when contracted and also for the preceding five years. (We might also note that its 1559 re-validization depended on the lay Royal Supremacy, rather than on any clerical power.) But so far as I know, Parker did not put away his wife during the time in which the then-invalid marriage would have made him, as a priest, an inappropriate representative of the Church.<br /><br />Obviously, one could carry on this sort of analysis with the historical occupants of other sees: but it does seem particularly problematic that two of Dr. Williams' predecessors might not qualify for an invitation to Lambeth.4 May 1535+noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-88356676223803530362009-08-07T13:18:40.893-05:002009-08-07T13:18:40.893-05:00drdanfee
Bottom line, RW is not going to listen to...drdanfee<br />Bottom line, RW is not going to listen to me, a little person at the bottom on the margins. I'm reminded of the parable of Lazarus and the rich man in Hades, asking to go back to warn his brothers. Let them listen to the voices already speaking truth and wisdom, is the reply.<br /><br />In the end, it will all be what it will be. RW has lots of status and leeway; he could set a large example, but so far seems more paralyzed. Perhaps the day will be saved by those willing to show the boldest, most conscientious actions? Is that how witness speaks?<br /><br />Going into second track exile with modernity may well be telling, in the long run, at least for Anglicanism in this century.Daniel Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13132658805227245932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-75185693370374754062009-08-07T12:08:05.913-05:002009-08-07T12:08:05.913-05:00IT, I think high functioning Asperger may not be t...IT, I think high functioning Asperger may not be too far off...<br /><br />As to Bishops, they were formally classified as belonging to the phylum Chordata, but have recently been transferred to the Invertebrates. What has long been assumed to be a spine was revealed to be a spongiform calcification.Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-81411075830698225602009-08-07T11:59:12.659-05:002009-08-07T11:59:12.659-05:00...and I speak as one with tenure.
Et tu, IT? I ...<i>...and I speak as one with tenure.</i><br /><br />Et tu, IT? I don't think so. Your EI seems to be working.<br /><br />I believe that your quote regarding academics might well be applied to certain bishops.June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-81633358928529304452009-08-07T11:12:34.329-05:002009-08-07T11:12:34.329-05:00Mimi, I think you are right. I have several colle...Mimi, I think you are right. I have several colleagues who completely lack emotional intelligence, and whose comments often offend people. They aren't truly Aspergian, but definitely have a blind spot in some of their more intellectual pursuits.<br /><br />Meanwhile, on academics, there is a famous <a href="http://www.langston.com/Fun_People/1992/1992AAC.html" rel="nofollow">quote</a> :<br /><i>"The juvenile sea squirt wanders through the sea searching for a suitable rock or hunk of coral to cling to and make its home for life. For this task, it has a rudimentary nervous system. When it finds its spot and takes root, it doesn't need its brain anymore so it eats it! (It's rather like getting tenure.)"</i> There is some truth to this.....and I speak as one with tenure.<br /><br />Perhaps this should be adapted to Bishops.IThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09605163506396013904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-89140699726190785482009-08-07T09:25:29.588-05:002009-08-07T09:25:29.588-05:00I believe that I understand a little better what y...I believe that I understand a little better what you are saying, Tobias. When a person sees more of the future possibilities of certain actions than most others envision, and that person moves into a powerful position, that can be paralyzing. Which way to go? And he would find it hard to explain the reasons for what he says and does to others.<br /><br />Is it possible that what Rowan lacks is emotional intelligence, that he can't foresee the emotional effect that his words and actions have on others?<br /><br />I confess that his words too often have a stinging effect on me. Doesn't he "get" that others will feel hurt after what seem to be scoldings and snubbings to them?June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-33522794212206488972009-08-06T23:12:22.720-05:002009-08-06T23:12:22.720-05:00I think it is a case of an intellectual sensory ov...<i>I think it is a case of an intellectual sensory overload.</i><br /><br />My point is, Tobias, that <b>that</b> is not intelligence - that's merely exposure to facts. Even absorption of facts does not indicate intelligence. <br /><br />Intelligence is processing and using those facts - something Williams simply cannot do.<br /><br />I often worry about our church; we often have a college-faculty mentality - Published = insightful. Tenured = intelligent. The higher the degree, the more capable. <br /><br />Having only a BA, I appreciate I carry a bias, but the reality is that this is a man with a great deal of education, and little to work with to use that education.MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-49455389738593588932009-08-06T13:09:34.930-05:002009-08-06T13:09:34.930-05:00Mimi, I have never forgotten the old advice, "...Mimi, I have never forgotten the old advice, "Put not your trust in rulers..." What is so frustrating is with Rowan we see Nietzsche's maxim, "It is a terrible thing to come to power, for power stupifies" coming true before our eyes.<br /><br />Yes, Nathan, Ephesians is a good antidote!Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-75710144542780047102009-08-06T12:56:30.375-05:002009-08-06T12:56:30.375-05:00I forgot to check the "Email follow-up commen...I forgot to check the "Email follow-up comments to..." box. Check!Nathan J.A. Humphreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18208109242962723992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-53923202923270237432009-08-06T12:55:20.875-05:002009-08-06T12:55:20.875-05:00I believe it is a great grace that we hear seven S...I believe it is a great grace that we hear seven Sundays' worth of readings from Ephesians every Year B in post-Pentecost, because they usually fall right in the middle and aftermath of General Convention. They are perfect "damage control" readings for people fed up with the church for being too progressive, or conversely impatient with its being too slow to make progress.Nathan J.A. Humphreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18208109242962723992noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-36628123303580218542009-08-06T11:07:09.269-05:002009-08-06T11:07:09.269-05:00Obama, anyone?
Aha! Although one would have hope...<i>Obama, anyone?</i><br /><br />Aha! Although one would have hoped that the archbishop, with the help of the Holy Ghost and grace and heavenly aid, might do a bit better.June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-90759049670728687432009-08-06T09:46:34.404-05:002009-08-06T09:46:34.404-05:00Not at all, Mimi. It is a classic truism that inte...Not at all, Mimi. It is a classic truism that intelligent liberals become almost incapable of action upon achieving positions of authority; unlike conservative bullies, their overwhelming desire for inclusion and peace causes them to cave to the right.<br /><br />Obama, anyone?Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-50637655258909529352009-08-06T09:29:48.045-05:002009-08-06T09:29:48.045-05:00In a way, at some level, I think he wants TEC to m...<i>In a way, at some level, I think he wants TEC to make the decision for him by being as bold as he is afraid to be.</i><br /><br />Perhaps, you're right, Tobias, but it's an odd game for an Archbishop of Canterbury to engage in.June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1721288516479078932009-08-06T08:42:01.639-05:002009-08-06T08:42:01.639-05:00Thanks for the additional comments. Let me just no...Thanks for the additional comments. Let me just note, in response in part to Leonardo and Mark B, that I think part of Rowan's problem is his intelligence. He is bright enough to see all of the possible courses of action -- and is paralyzed to inaction. I think it is a case of an intellectual sensory overload. Instead of following his heart, he is transfixed by his head. His terror of "consequences" leads to inaction and the "easiest course" -- talking to TEC, who he knows will to at least some extent, give in to him, instead of facing up to the GAFCONites who he knows hold him in contempt. <br /><br />Important Point:<br /><b>Fear of consequences of action (read the Reflection carefully!) is <i>his</i> problem, but it need not be ours. In a way, at some level, I think he wants TEC to make the decision for him by being as bold as he is afraid to be.</b>Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-10240654770621562772009-08-05T22:54:08.943-05:002009-08-05T22:54:08.943-05:00I'm sorry, but I still am shocked that people ...I'm sorry, but I still am shocked that people consider Williams such a great intellect!<br /><br />Is it just his degrees? His use of language (If ya can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with . . . you know)?<br /><br />He lacks insight, strength of character, sensitivity, perception, self-awareness. Surely, those are the true signs of brilliance in a leader?MarkBrunsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971990948866488080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-86308705856870771602009-08-05T10:51:21.099-05:002009-08-05T10:51:21.099-05:00I believe Archbishop Rowan selectively ¨listens¨.....I believe Archbishop Rowan selectively ¨listens¨...he´s been very ¨attentive¨ when granting audiences for Global South Anglicans/Gafcons and their North American accomplices.<br /><br />Dr. Williams ¨listened¨ briefly to TEC at a HOB´s Meeting in New Orleans a couple of years ago and recently for two days at TEC General Convention (where he also threatened deputies and Bishops). <br /><br />Not much REAL listening in the flesh.<br /><br />Selectively ¨listening¨ to a few and NOT paying attention to the irresponsible results of anti-LGBT human/demeaning actions of Pope Benedict, breakaway Bob Duncan or bordercrossing Greg Venables is a problem. The REAL, and daily, on-the-ground persecution of LGBT Anglicans/others by +Orombi and +Akinola/others is revealing disrepectful, feardriven and of unsound balance in Spiritual leadership at The Body of Christ.<br /><br />Silence. Is Dr. Williams paying keen attention to HATE CRIMES against LGBT Anglicans (and often heterosexual women) throughout the Anglican Communion and in the U.K.? This IS a religious matter of grave importance...REAL lives with Souls are being tormented.<br /><br />We want to know Dr. Williams and his PERSONAL experience, Spiritual dilemmas, and his complete views on the ministry.<br /><br />Please, the ABC ought bare ¨witness¨ from the depth of his being and in the ¨first person¨ from his position of first amongst equals as he ¨listens¨ to the REALITY of mission in all Provinces of The Anglican Communion.<br /><br />So far, there seems to me a dangerous and irresponsible omission that calls for more TRUTH in responsible/accountable leadership. <br /><br />My own, individual, belief and experience with God must be authentic and original as well as collection of the ¨traditional Church values¨ that I was ¨taught¨ but sometimes must review because those ¨beliefs¨ may harm others...to ignore wrongdoing against fellow Christians/others is a sin of the slothful variety.<br /><br />Is there a Spiritless vacuum created when dusty or feardriven outdated superstitions and taboos are ¨encouraged¨ to be revalidated (Anglican Covenant?) while blatant wrongs are done against Anglicans/others? <br /><br />Denial of brute harm being done against OUR brothers and sisters at The Body of Christ is cowardly believing and leading.<br /><br />Thank you Fr. Tobias, I look forward to Part Three.Leonardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16667415590825321701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-45490448984402075272009-08-03T23:18:14.428-05:002009-08-03T23:18:14.428-05:00The blind elephant koan is brilliant! I think, in ...The blind elephant koan is brilliant! I think, in fact, that it may apply just as well to brain-based consciousness itself (which you cite in the next paragraph). Is our own self-awareness not continually building itself from scraps of memory, learning, and perception?<br />How much more so, then, our societal structures? I now have a new way of considering what "the mind of the Communion" might actually mean.<br /><br />Thank you.<br /><br />ColeUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288582875888457850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-19617988335134816672009-08-03T20:45:07.669-05:002009-08-03T20:45:07.669-05:00Tobias, one way that I arrive at truth is through ...Tobias, one way that I arrive at truth is through stories. Jesus was wise to use parables so often in his teachings.<br /><br />As I see it, your story is powerful teaching. And it's not just your story. With differing circumstances and personalities, it's the story of many others. If I needed any convincing that people need to live their truths of who they are, I believe that your story would have moved me in that direction. Your story would have been enough to convince me that living a life of "don't ask, don't tell" is not the way to go.<br /><br />The ABC listens, but the stories seem not to engage him enough to change him or to cause him to change direction. I can't even address the rest of what he's doing, because I don't know what he's about. But everything he says and does seems to result in pushing the members of the community apart, rather than drawing them together. Playing the waiting game, trying to pacify everyone just enough not to have a formal break does not seem effective leadership.<br /><br />If I want strong central leadership in my church, which I don't, I can always go back to Rome.<br /><br />We've had no listening process in our diocese, at least none that included lay people.June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-90366008549448569752009-08-03T15:30:30.370-05:002009-08-03T15:30:30.370-05:00What I have been calling conversation--this is our...What I have been calling conversation--this is our Anglican method. The problem is when there isn't the space not only for listening, but for disagreement and even argument. <br /><br />Good of you to point out federation as a solidly catholic Christian way to go, as the Benedictines and Franciscans do much ministry by it.Closedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04752595488795781895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-26421202303097921212009-08-03T14:04:41.019-05:002009-08-03T14:04:41.019-05:00Thanks, Davis and James. Tom, I think the analogy ...Thanks, Davis and James. Tom, I think the analogy with Whitby is a good one, particularly given Rowan's longing for playing footsie with Rome. It is something to be aware of, and I'll say more about that in part 3 or 4, if it goes that long.<br /><br />IT, you may be right, but that is not the feeling I get based on direct experience, however limited. I think Rowan is playing a waiting game, but the ones to whom he is presenting "enough rope" are the GAFCON folks, who are the only ones actually "walking apart." I think he also knows, as I said elsewhere, which way the wind is blowing -- towards greater inclusion -- and he is trying to hold together the progressives and moderates. As I've said before, the communion is split in thirds -- the more progressive part, the moderates, and the reactionaries. THe most extreme reactionaries are virtually if not actually out the door. The rest can work together even if not in complete agreement on the Big Issues. The "listening" is far more than mere "cover" -- as people even in parts of the GS (not certain Primates, I agree) are wooed into staying within the Communion. There are fault-lines in the GS as much as in TEC, and it will be very hard to make a monolith of such diverse material.Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-83946625880895026222009-08-03T13:32:22.425-05:002009-08-03T13:32:22.425-05:00I think you are too hopeful.
Rather,this
Monoli...I think you are too hopeful.<br /><br /> Rather,this<i><br />Monolithic entities — especially when they think they already have the truth or even are infallible — tend not to be open to correction, reform or development; they often do not listen to the corrective warnings of the child who sees the naked emperor. It is very easy for unity and unanimity to lead to self-deception; even to conspiracy and repression of the truth.</i> <br /><br />seems to describe Rowan's ideal. I view the "listening" as mere cover, not intended to lead to any change, merely to placate the talkers.<br /><br />But then, I'm a cynic about politics.IThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09605163506396013904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-46922108813737730592009-08-03T12:55:21.842-05:002009-08-03T12:55:21.842-05:00Fr Haller,
Words are inadequate to comment on your...Fr Haller,<br />Words are inadequate to comment on your post. Superb doesn't even begin to come close. Thank you for sharing this. <br /><br />And, congratulation on 29 years with your Beloved Person.Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11622358803103789307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-21292440110457613392009-08-03T12:52:58.866-05:002009-08-03T12:52:58.866-05:00Tobias:
I am struck particularly by this:
And I ...Tobias:<br /><br />I am struck particularly by this:<br /><br /><i>And I cannot help but note that given the Anglican Benedictine heritage, it might be good to remember the essentially autonomous nature of each abbey — living a common rule but individually governed, with only a superficial ecclesiastical structure at a higher level of management, an arch-abbot whose primary task is to check in once and a while at each abbey to see how well they are following the Rule they hold in common, but exercise as individual foundations. Sounds like the Anglican Communion to me!</i><br /><br />Perhaps we are once again at a Synod of Whitby point--do we go with a Roman, centralized, top-down structure or with a more Celtic, monastic, grassroots-based one? The difference, of course, is that to some extent that train has already left the station. Few are likely to look kindly upon anything that looks the least bit like a power grab. On the flip side, I'm also a little wary of the Americanized sense that democracy is somehow more Christian than other forms of governance.Tom Sramek, Jr.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17891982131922786298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-6898485453614716402009-08-03T12:11:06.130-05:002009-08-03T12:11:06.130-05:00This is superb.This is superb.Davishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06167056789275283692noreply@blogger.com